Very interesting! I'm bilingual English/French, learning French at age 12 when I already read a *lot* in English. It took me dozens of years to feel comfortable reading in French, so I've only read Proust a few years ago.
I checked the specific phrase in French that you cited to illustrate the different translations. I think Carter does a pretty good job conveying the initial sense of the original version.
The one thing I don't think any of the translated versions have gotten quite right is the phrase "the chain of hours" in the 1st sentence: "Un homme qui dort tient en cercle autour de lui **le fil des heures**, l’ordre des années et des mondes."
In French, "le fil" is "the thread", "the string", "the weft" (of a textile) or "the grain" (of wood). (The website wordreference.com is a really good one to check translations of expressions & vocabulary).
So this phrase evokes more for me "the thread of time", for example the image in Greek mythology of the female characters who hold the thread of our lives and can cut them off with a snip of their scissors.
I find it odd that "chain" was used in the English translation, because it can evoke a metal chain that gives a different meaning to that phrase IMO, giving a more "heavy" image of the hours, whereas the French word "fil" does not have that meaning at all, and thus is much lighter... Similar expressions in French are "au fil du temps", meaning "over the course of time", "as time goes by". The French also use the same word "fil" in the expression that also exists in English: "life hanging on by a thread" ("sa vie ne tient qu'à un fil".)
So personally I would have preferred a word that conveys more the fragility of the sequence of hours.
Looking forward to reading more about your discovery of Proust! 🙂📖📚
Thank you so much for your comment! I love this deep dive into that line. I read their use of "chain" _as_ "thread" (as a sequence) so I really appreciate seeing this translation note on the word itself. It does seem interesting that all three resorted to chain based on what you've noted here. Did you read the whole set of books, if you don't mind saying?
Yes I read the entire book series, at a very leisurely pace. It's like a luxurious & rich gourmet meal, not to be rushed through. Before taking on that massive novel, I read an earlier work by Proust that I found more accessible (& shorter!) called "Contre Sainte Beuve" (I don't know what the title is in English, "Against Saint Beuve" maybe?)
Most French people who have even a small knowledge of classic french literature recognize instantly the first sentence of Proust's masterpiece: "Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure." (My autotext in French actually suggested that word sequence when I started typing it. 🙂)
Did you know that the biggest collection of Proust's correspondance is in the American Midwest? Fascinating that they ended up there & not in France! https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/725551
Love this so much. This is truly an obsessive deep dive. Nice work!
Proust must be in the air because Brandi Kincaid recommended in this months Extravagent Hope “How Proust can Change Your Life”, which is an essay collection.
I recently read “The Ink Dark Moon: Love Poems by Ono No Komachi and Izumi Shikibu, Women of the Ancient Court of Japan” which is translated by Jane Hirshfield (who I also love as a poet and is likely how I found this book) and I was wondering how poetry is translated. Much to my delight and nerd brain there are two sections in the appendix about translations and her process.
Just put the essay collection on hold. Thanks for the mention. I can see the issue of translation would be especially critical in poetry, too. I think we don’t always stop to think about it when there is a single translation. But now, seeing how wide-ranging translations can be, I’ll probably always wonder.
Is it okay to admit (I'm pretty sure I start at least one comment a month that way) that I've never been inclined to take on this kind of a challenge? I applaud you for doing so!
Wow! I so admire your tenacity. I am continually blown away by how you persevere with your long projects. My year-long projects are more like, “finish writing the novel this year” or ““cook something from the NYT every week” or “read 12 books of poetry.” I rarely meet my goals. I find it hard to sustain a project that exists in such a long stretch of time (besides the “projects” of maintaining good relationships with the people whom I care about, that is). Nevertheless, I continue to create projects for myself, because they pull me towards doing or being more than I would have. It’s not about getting to the end, at least for me, but keeping in motion, in doing, and seeing where that takes me. I am very inspired by your taking on Proust! Perhaps I’ll take on reading Joyce, which I’ve always wanted to do, but which intimidates me. I love hearing about your process of choosing which translation to read. (I used to have a client who was a translator and before knowing her I hadn’t realized just how much of a translation is the creativity and talent of the translator). And I agree with you, I like the Carter best, too!
Good to hear from you. I considered Joyce when deciding to do this. I am guessing you would read Ulysses?
I actually haven’t made any goals this year - still settling in, I guess. But I think the types of goals you listed are awesome — I don’t even think of Proust as a goal. I just think it’s going to be pervasive in the year, this reading. I agree with you about the value in lining projects up though — forward movement, regardless of outcome. That’s the process-oriented approach, which I use, too.
I wish Davis had done the full set. I am sure I would likely have just read the translation by a woman and never dig into the others. I guess I’m glad I stopped to compare some lines.
Very interesting! I'm bilingual English/French, learning French at age 12 when I already read a *lot* in English. It took me dozens of years to feel comfortable reading in French, so I've only read Proust a few years ago.
I checked the specific phrase in French that you cited to illustrate the different translations. I think Carter does a pretty good job conveying the initial sense of the original version.
The one thing I don't think any of the translated versions have gotten quite right is the phrase "the chain of hours" in the 1st sentence: "Un homme qui dort tient en cercle autour de lui **le fil des heures**, l’ordre des années et des mondes."
In French, "le fil" is "the thread", "the string", "the weft" (of a textile) or "the grain" (of wood). (The website wordreference.com is a really good one to check translations of expressions & vocabulary).
So this phrase evokes more for me "the thread of time", for example the image in Greek mythology of the female characters who hold the thread of our lives and can cut them off with a snip of their scissors.
I find it odd that "chain" was used in the English translation, because it can evoke a metal chain that gives a different meaning to that phrase IMO, giving a more "heavy" image of the hours, whereas the French word "fil" does not have that meaning at all, and thus is much lighter... Similar expressions in French are "au fil du temps", meaning "over the course of time", "as time goes by". The French also use the same word "fil" in the expression that also exists in English: "life hanging on by a thread" ("sa vie ne tient qu'à un fil".)
So personally I would have preferred a word that conveys more the fragility of the sequence of hours.
Looking forward to reading more about your discovery of Proust! 🙂📖📚
Thank you so much for your comment! I love this deep dive into that line. I read their use of "chain" _as_ "thread" (as a sequence) so I really appreciate seeing this translation note on the word itself. It does seem interesting that all three resorted to chain based on what you've noted here. Did you read the whole set of books, if you don't mind saying?
Yes I read the entire book series, at a very leisurely pace. It's like a luxurious & rich gourmet meal, not to be rushed through. Before taking on that massive novel, I read an earlier work by Proust that I found more accessible (& shorter!) called "Contre Sainte Beuve" (I don't know what the title is in English, "Against Saint Beuve" maybe?)
Most French people who have even a small knowledge of classic french literature recognize instantly the first sentence of Proust's masterpiece: "Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure." (My autotext in French actually suggested that word sequence when I started typing it. 🙂)
Did you know that the biggest collection of Proust's correspondance is in the American Midwest? Fascinating that they ended up there & not in France! https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/725551
Some of his letters about his novel are also in Massachusetts: https://www.brandeis.edu/library/archives/essays/special-collections/proust.html
Love this so much. This is truly an obsessive deep dive. Nice work!
Proust must be in the air because Brandi Kincaid recommended in this months Extravagent Hope “How Proust can Change Your Life”, which is an essay collection.
I recently read “The Ink Dark Moon: Love Poems by Ono No Komachi and Izumi Shikibu, Women of the Ancient Court of Japan” which is translated by Jane Hirshfield (who I also love as a poet and is likely how I found this book) and I was wondering how poetry is translated. Much to my delight and nerd brain there are two sections in the appendix about translations and her process.
Just put the essay collection on hold. Thanks for the mention. I can see the issue of translation would be especially critical in poetry, too. I think we don’t always stop to think about it when there is a single translation. But now, seeing how wide-ranging translations can be, I’ll probably always wonder.
Umberto Eco wrote a great essay about the challenges of translating literature. https://utppublishing.com/doi/book/10.3138/9780802096142
Is it okay to admit (I'm pretty sure I start at least one comment a month that way) that I've never been inclined to take on this kind of a challenge? I applaud you for doing so!
Wow! I so admire your tenacity. I am continually blown away by how you persevere with your long projects. My year-long projects are more like, “finish writing the novel this year” or ““cook something from the NYT every week” or “read 12 books of poetry.” I rarely meet my goals. I find it hard to sustain a project that exists in such a long stretch of time (besides the “projects” of maintaining good relationships with the people whom I care about, that is). Nevertheless, I continue to create projects for myself, because they pull me towards doing or being more than I would have. It’s not about getting to the end, at least for me, but keeping in motion, in doing, and seeing where that takes me. I am very inspired by your taking on Proust! Perhaps I’ll take on reading Joyce, which I’ve always wanted to do, but which intimidates me. I love hearing about your process of choosing which translation to read. (I used to have a client who was a translator and before knowing her I hadn’t realized just how much of a translation is the creativity and talent of the translator). And I agree with you, I like the Carter best, too!
Good to hear from you. I considered Joyce when deciding to do this. I am guessing you would read Ulysses?
I actually haven’t made any goals this year - still settling in, I guess. But I think the types of goals you listed are awesome — I don’t even think of Proust as a goal. I just think it’s going to be pervasive in the year, this reading. I agree with you about the value in lining projects up though — forward movement, regardless of outcome. That’s the process-oriented approach, which I use, too.
I wish Davis had done the full set. I am sure I would likely have just read the translation by a woman and never dig into the others. I guess I’m glad I stopped to compare some lines.
Thanks for reading!